So, hello everyone, welcome to our next talk.
We have two speakers, Dario and Luca, and they talk about defending software freedom and
interoperability, free software's role in fairer digital markets.
The stage is yours.
Thank you.
Thank you very much and good evening everyone.
It's a pleasure to be here as the first InselChaos.
I'm Dario Presutti and my colleague Luca and we are part of the Free Software Foundation
Europe and this evening we are going to talk about software freedom, interoperability,
European legislation and diversification.
Very briefly, the agenda, we're going to talk about tech monopolies and its relation
with free software, then how we are trying to enforce software freedom against exactly
tech companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft and then we're going to talk about how you
can also be part of the change.
So, about the FSFE, for those of you who don't know who we are, we are a charity that empowers
users to control technology.
And with the promotion of free and open source software and we do that through three pillars,
let's say, of our work.
So, public awareness and then advocating policy and regulatory changes and also with timely
legal intervention and you're going to discover about this soon.
So, to dive in the topic, we ask ourselves this question.
So, do we have control over access?
Do we have control over our devices?
And unfortunately, until now or for the majority of us, the answer is no, because you all own
a device and maybe you are aware that there are imposed lock-ins, so we have to stick
with an operating system or there is no access to third-party app stores, we are forced to
use app stores that we don't want to and there is no interoperability between third-party
app stores.
So, there is a need to control power and we want that to be in the system that we want
to control with our devices and software.
And most importantly, often there is no software freedom.
And this is a problem and this is also a problem of the market because, as you may know, Apple
and Google have together 99 percent of the world market for mobile operating systems
and as you can see here, free software operating system distributions are kind of everywhere,
that's here.
But we think it's time to change and that's why our activity with device neutrality, we're trying to regain control over devices and so to enforce software freedom in devices, to not have window lock-in and especially also to have end-user control over data.
And we do this since more than 20 years. We're trying to empower all creatures to contract technology also in devices. We have different activities, for example, free your Android, that it's a public awareness activity where we're trying to map the alternative and free software operating system mobile distributions.
Then we have router freedom where we also there with public awareness campaign advocacy, we try to protect everyone's freedom.
And then since a couple of years we're also working on the DMA, so the Digital Markets Act, and we're trying to enforce it in a way that protects software freedom and also empowers software freedom.
And I give the floor to Lucas.
Yes, thank you, Dario, and hello everybody. It's a great pleasure for us to be in this InsoCausa, our first time here, it's also the first time we've been in InsoCausa, so thanks a lot for opening the floor to us.
So, as Dario already started with this very intriguing question, do we have control of our devices, right?
And as a small organization we have to pick our fights.
And when we saw that this law was coming to force in the European Union, this law that we will dive into, we said this is the time for the free software community to be active in order to change the realities of the market.
As Dario explained, 99% is impossibly.
So, the markets became so concentrated, so unfair, that even the European Union decided to regulate the market, right?
And this law is all about inserting more competition into the market.
So basically this law applies only to the largest tech companies in the planet, so Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Meta and Apple.
And this law gives power to the European community.
So, this law applies to the European Commission to designate the terms services that this law will apply, because this law has very powerful legal instruments.
So, this law applies to online search engines, to social networks, operating systems, online app stores and cloud services.
And for free software, there are some rules that we can read there that are very powerful tools.
So, it's like a can opener, you know, that we can literally make holes in the infrastructure of big tech.
So, for an example, Article 6.3, there is an obligation to allow uninstalling of apps in our mobile devices.
Article 6.4, obligation to allow third party app stores, and the law uses the term sideloading, basically installing, you know, software in your device without the need for an app store or something, right?
And Article 6.7, this is one of my favorites, because, like, this is hardcore.
And Article 6.7, this is hardcore.
Regulation, over interoperability, where we will talk about this in a second.
This big tech needs to give access to the same software features and functionalities that they have to third parties, right?
So, this is a very strong type of obligations.
And, of course, this law, cause, yeah, it was a hit, right?
Yes.
So, it's hitting the head.
Yes.
Die Headlines, besonders nach der Administration von Trump in den USA,
haben kritisch einen Skandal gegen diese Regel,
die sagt, dass die DMA gegen nordamerikanische Firmen diskriminiert ist.
Sie sagen, dass sie die Innovation dieser Firmen verhindern.
Sie sagen, dass die DMA gegen nordamerikanische Firmen diskriminiert ist.
Es gibt also einen sehr starken Backslash der DMA gegen diese Regel.
Und wenn ich sage, dass sie gegen diese Regel sind,
dann meine ich gegen das Uninstallieren von Softwaren,
alternativen Operationssystemen, alternativen App-Stores,
das Side-Loaden von Applikationen und Interoperabilität.
Diese Regel ist also nicht gegen diese Regel,
sondern gegen die DMA.
Diese Regel ist also nicht gegen diese Regel,
sondern gegen die DMA.
Das sind die vier Freiheiten von Software.
Deshalb haben wir uns engagiert.
Wie gesagt, wir haben uns engagiert in diesem Kampf.
Wir haben uns engagiert in diesem Kampf.
Denn wir denken, dass die Beziehungen zwischen DMA und Free Software
komplementär sind.
Es gibt eine Synergie.
Sie sind miteinander nützlich.
Denn hier in Europa,
in der Softwareindustrie in Europa,
ist es keine große Technologie.
94% der Softwareentwicklung
ist durch kleine und mittlere Unternehmensunternehmen gemacht,
mit weniger als neun Mitarbeitern.
Es gab eine Studie der Europäischen Kommission,
in der sie den Markt der Softwareindustrie in Europa analysiert haben.
Und sie haben das realisiert.
Also, die Softwareindustrie in der EU ist eine kleine Technologie.
Und deshalb ist unsere Beziehung zu dieser Regel
nicht die EU gegen die USA.
Nein, es ist die große Technologie gegen die kleine Technologie.
Denn die große Technologie ist nicht nur für die Europäer zutreffend,
sondern auch für den ganzen Welt,
insbesondere die USA.
Und wir sind in Kontakt mit vielen Organisationen
in den Vereinigten Staaten,
dass sie auch gegen die große Technologie sind.
Denn das ist zutreffend für ihre eigenen Gesellschaften.
Und deshalb,
wenn wir die vier Freiheiten der Software nutzen wollen,
die Freiheit zu nutzen,
müssen wir die kleine Technologie verteidigen.
Wir müssen die Geräte-Neutralität verteidigen.
Deshalb,
und wie wir uns damit engagieren,
also, wie wir diese Regel als Realität machen,
wir sind in der privaten Befreiung dieser Regel involviert.
Bis jetzt ist die FSFE
die einzige zivilgesellschaftliche Organisation,
die die DMA privat befreiungspflichtig verfolgt.
Und wir sind,
wir sind gegen Apple eingegangen.
Denn Apple,
das erste, was Apple macht,
war, dass die Europäische Kommission
Apple als Gätegeber bezeichnet hat.
Also begann die Regel, sie anzunehmen.
Apple hat an den Europäischen Gerichtshof gefeuert
und sagte, diese Regel sollte nicht an mich eingeführt werden.
Und sie versuchen, die DMA-Regeln zu verfolgen,
besonders in Bezug auf AppStore
und die Interoperabilität
der Systeme.
Und das ist sehr interessant,
weil sie in einem sehr kreativen,
in einem sehr kreativen,
sie sind sehr kreativ.
Und sie befinden sich in der Debatte
über Interoperabilität gegen Menschenrechte.
Sie sagen, Interoperabilität ist gegen
Menschenrechte.
Ja
Sie sagen, es ist gegen das Recht auf
Bauchrecht, es ist das Recht auf Business zu handeln,
denn wenn man Interoperabilität
in jemanden forciert,
dann forciert man jemanden,
Kontakte mit jemand anderen zu erstellen.
So
und sie sagen, dies ist gegen
human rights and and their own relationship so we went there and we and we
had a victor already is our victor is to be accepted as part in this in this court
case because this court case was Apple against the against the European
Commission and yeah two big parties and then we request the court to be to
intervene our lawyer is involved with the free software community since
forever and the court accepted us and now we are bringing the argument that as
soon as such societies grow interoperability become inevitable and
Apple is being regulated from the public interest perspective and this is our
take so we want that the DMA is enforced in a developer friendly way
you
install software that you cannot uninstall good luck trying to uninstall
chromium for example right but this law is very clear saying you have to every
apps that is installed in the in the device should be uninstalled and it's
amazing because Google came and presented different definitions of
uninstalling and affirms that disabling this Apple is equal of uninstalling it
and yeah and they come from different types of disabling and in their view
this is compliant with the law and this in practice means uninstalling and we
from the free software community we understand that uninstalling and
installing are very precise terms you know and therefore we again we started a
complaint against Google together with a group of civil society organizations and
Das Gesetz bringt Beweise an die Europäische Kommission, dass wir die Uninstallation von preinstallierten Software auf unseren Geräten wollen.
Das ist natürlich wichtig für die Geräte. Wir wollen diese Lock-ins nicht behalten.
Letzteres, und ich gehe hier etwas schneller, um uns mehr Zeit zu geben, um zu diskutieren, und wenn Sie Fragen darüber haben.
Jeder weiß, dass wenn wir eine neue Laptop kaufen und sie manchmal mit Windows-Systemen preinstalliert werden können...
... ist es schwer, eine Bezahlung der Lizenz zu bekommen.
Manchmal kostet das 40€, manchmal ist es günstiger.
Und wenn man dann zum Verkäufer in Deutschland geht, Saturn oder MediaMarkt oder wo auch immer, und sagt...
...
I don't want to use the Windows in my laptop that I just bought.
Can you give the license fee back?
They said, no, we can't.
Okay, so where should I get this license fee back?
Okay, you have to write to the manufacturer.
Thank you.
And then we go to the manufacturer.
The manufacturer said, no, you have to write to Microsoft.
And then we write it to Microsoft.
So we started a campaign.
Refund for Freedom.
We want to make it easy for everyone to get the Windows license.
This is already protected under the EU law.
And we think that this is fair.
So these are some of the actions, the hardcore actions that we are doing
in order to make this law applicable in the European Union.
But you can also be part of that.
And I give the word back to Dario.
Yes, you can also be part of the change
because I don't know if you know this initiative from the European Commission.
It's called the Next Generation Internet Initiative.
Basically, it actually funds free software projects
that try to build alternatives to what we have now.
So there are different application rounds and they are ongoing.
Right now there is a new application round open until the 1st of October.
So if you're developing something,
some free software that you think might need some funding
and might be relevant, you can apply there.
As FSFE, we're also part of this consortium
and we help projects with licenses and with our use tool
that makes licensing easier for everyone.
So you can scan the QR code, go to the website that is there
and you can actually be part of the change.
And develop alternatives.
But you can also be part of the movement for software freedom.
So if you're interested in our activities,
you can go to our website, check what we are doing.
You can become supporters.
And actually, this is extremely important
because that's how we can pursue our fight for software freedom
with contributions from everyone.
And last but not least, we're going to be here today.
Today.
Tonight, not for so long,
but tomorrow we're going to be here since the early afternoon.
So if you want to talk to us, we have a small booth,
we have a small table.
We're really happy to welcome you there
and to talk about free software, to talk about our activities.
If you have any questions, you're more than welcome to ask.
So thank you.
Thank you very much.
So many thanks for your talk.
So questions?
From the audience.
There's one.
Hi.
And thank you for fighting this fight.
I think it's really important.
My question is, how does that make you feel?
Because, I mean, you're fighting the big tech.
You're fighting the big companies, the big boys.
And I guess it's really hard.
So how is that for you?
It's challenging, I would say.
I mean, yeah, we fear retaliation.
And we saw in the news that the Trump administration
are planning to introduce sanctions
against the European Commission's officers
that are working in these laws.
So the officers that are enforcing,
they most likely will be sanctioned.
So, yeah, I do think that it is...
requires a lot of mental strength on this.
But the good thing is that we have an awesome community.
So every time that we go to the conference like this
and to others, you know, we receive a lot of support,
moral support and technical support, for an example.
Because when we start to work on this law,
you know, we didn't know precisely how this would work.
And together with a coalition of apps,
we didn't have time to talk with this.
But we had several different app stores,
payment systems, browsers,
all of them free software that came to us
and helped us to understand how we could do this
and how we could put this under the law
in order to make this legally.
So the support that we received from the community
helps us really pushing this
because we know that we are not alone in this.
And if I may add,
thank you for the question.
And it's really nice to ask you this, to ask us this.
Sometimes I feel like there is fighting against some bullies, you know.
And to be honest, fighting against bullies,
it's always challenging, but it's actually rewarding
because, you know, they're doing something wrong.
So it's a nice fight to pick, for sure.
Yes, thank you for doing this.
Definitely.
I think it's...
Definitely the right course.
And it's good that you're here.
Definitely also the right place for it.
And what I would like to ask is,
especially what you've just mentioned,
the apps.
For example, what I personally think of
is Enter for photo sharing, open source.
Former Google employee who started this.
Are companies like these supporting you directly
just by, for example,
donations or other support?
Can you repeat the question?
Sorry, of course.
So, I personally use quite a lot of open source software.
And this is a unique setting point for me.
One question would be,
is there any, for example,
are there companies that are just directly supporting you?
Ah, yeah.
And is this something that they use as ad for the app?
Or using their services?
So, for example, I could think of services like Enter.
I could think of services like DuckDuckGo, for example.
Are you having a list of companies that are supporting you?
And on the other hand, just like, for example,
with labels like Fairtrade
that are used by companies in the food business,
do you have like a label that companies use
to showcase that they are supporting you?
Yeah.
In whatever way?
Yeah.
Thank you for your question.
We are very transparent on our donors.
So, we have a list of the companies.
And our donors go from individuals to small media enterprise.
And some of these large companies,
because they like free and open source software,
they also donate to us.
So, even the companies that we are fighting,
their open source department like us.
So, it's, yeah.
But,
we are doing this type of outreach because sometimes,
and your question is very important,
very, very important,
because free software companies, the smaller ones,
sometimes they don't know about this law, you know.
And recently we went to the Open Source Business Alliance
and we had a talk there, you know,
because sometimes the companies say,
oh, this is just a law that, you know,
we don't understand there.
And we are here to show that this law has a lot of obligations
to these large companies that will benefit from it.
It will benefit the smaller free software companies, you know.
So, and we want that free software companies
developing these alternative things that you just mentioned
also profit from this.
Because this is what actually the democratic, yeah,
institutions in the European Union, they want.
They want, we don't want to be stuck in all the lock-ins.
We need alternatives.
But in order to have alternatives,
we need companies or projects that are doing this.
Of course, the implementation of free software
in the public administration or,
you know,
not only in public administration,
in markets is a different debate
because then we need also,
we have like public money, public code,
we have other activities that is oriented to this.
But I do think that we have several companies supporting us,
smaller free software companies supporting us.
But I think that not only for support for us,
but I think more companies should be aware of this.
And that's why we are doing this outreach
and to use this opportunity
this momentum in order to get better policies
in relation to this, yes.
But thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
Are there more questions from the audience?
Then I would like to ask one question.
How is your cooperation with other initiatives,
with local initiatives from countries?
Or how you connect with other parties that have the same goals?
Yes.
Okay.
I will give some examples
and I will also give Dario some examples.
So I have, there's two fronts.
For us, the technical front, as I said,
and the public awareness one.
Dario is in contact with several organizations,
work on the public awareness level, you know.
And we are together also collaborating
and working together with several free software
from different countries.
On the technical level.
So, for an example,
recently we started a survey of free software projects
that they are distributing their apps on Android or iOS.
And we wanted to know what are the challenges
that they are facing, for an example,
when they have to access some APIs, right?
For an example, a camera app in iOS,
when they have to access the camera.
In iPhone.
Is the API good documented?
What do you have to do in order to get access to this?
Recently, we work with GnuTaller.
GnuTaller is a...
Alternative payment system.
Alternative payment system that they entered in iOS
and they were not granted access to the NFC chip on devices.
And it took a long time for them to get access to an NFC chip.
And then we documented this.
And we put it in iOS.
And we put this in a documentation.
And we sent it to the European Commission.
And said, look, this is not right under the DMA.
Other, for an example,
we had also technical collaboration with emulators.
Emulators that they wanted to access some software features.
They were not possible.
And then we documented everything
and we sent it to the European Commission
and said, this is not right under the law.
So, this is the type of technical collaboration
that we are having with free software projects
in order to...
Yeah, to call the attention of regulators
that free software need helps
in order to make this law a reality.
But also in the public awareness.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So, of course, the more we are, the better.
And so, we're also trying to do a lot of outreach
with other civil society organizations.
There are other civil society organizations
that are also collaborating with us
and we're collaborating with them at the European level,
more at the local level, also in Germany
or in Germany.
At the European level, for example,
EDRI or Article 19.
So, there are a lot of civil society organizations
that are active on this.
So, the debate now is also on the DMA
before it was more focused on the Digital Service Act.
But we believe that it's important.
It's also why we're trying to talk a lot
with other civil society organizations.
Not only digital rights organizations,
but in general to other civil society organizations.
So, also if you think you can put us in contact
with someone, that would be great.
Because the more we are, the better.
And I think this is a fight for the better.
Thank you.
Okay, thank you.
So, we have some more time
if there are more questions from the audience.
Then let's thank our speakers again.
Thanks a lot.
It's a pleasure.
Thank you.