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So, hello everyone, welcome to our next talk.

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We have two speakers, Dario and Luca, and they talk about defending software freedom and

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interoperability, free software's role in fairer digital markets.

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The stage is yours.

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Thank you.

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Thank you very much and good evening everyone.

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It's a pleasure to be here as the first InselChaos.

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I'm Dario Presutti and my colleague Luca and we are part of the Free Software Foundation

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Europe and this evening we are going to talk about software freedom, interoperability,

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European legislation and diversification.

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Very briefly, the agenda, we're going to talk about tech monopolies and its relation

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with free software, then how we are trying to enforce software freedom against exactly

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tech companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft and then we're going to talk about how you

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can also be part of the change.

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So, about the FSFE, for those of you who don't know who we are, we are a charity that empowers

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users to control technology.

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And with the promotion of free and open source software and we do that through three pillars,

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let's say, of our work.

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So, public awareness and then advocating policy and regulatory changes and also with timely

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legal intervention and you're going to discover about this soon.

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So, to dive in the topic, we ask ourselves this question.

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So, do we have control over access?

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Do we have control over our devices?

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And unfortunately, until now or for the majority of us, the answer is no, because you all own

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a device and maybe you are aware that there are imposed lock-ins, so we have to stick

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with an operating system or there is no access to third-party app stores, we are forced to

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use app stores that we don't want to and there is no interoperability between third-party

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app stores.

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So, there is a need to control power and we want that to be in the system that we want

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to control with our devices and software.

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And most importantly, often there is no software freedom.

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And this is a problem and this is also a problem of the market because, as you may know, Apple

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and Google have together 99 percent of the world market for mobile operating systems

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and as you can see here, free software operating system distributions are kind of everywhere,

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that's here.

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But we think it's time to change and that's why our activity with device neutrality, we're trying to regain control over devices and so to enforce software freedom in devices, to not have window lock-in and especially also to have end-user control over data.

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And we do this since more than 20 years. We're trying to empower all creatures to contract technology also in devices. We have different activities, for example, free your Android, that it's a public awareness activity where we're trying to map the alternative and free software operating system mobile distributions.

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Then we have router freedom where we also there with public awareness campaign advocacy, we try to protect everyone's freedom.

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And then since a couple of years we're also working on the DMA, so the Digital Markets Act, and we're trying to enforce it in a way that protects software freedom and also empowers software freedom.

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And I give the floor to Lucas.

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Yes, thank you, Dario, and hello everybody. It's a great pleasure for us to be in this InsoCausa, our first time here, it's also the first time we've been in InsoCausa, so thanks a lot for opening the floor to us.

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So, as Dario already started with this very intriguing question, do we have control of our devices, right?

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And as a small organization we have to pick our fights.

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And when we saw that this law was coming to force in the European Union, this law that we will dive into, we said this is the time for the free software community to be active in order to change the realities of the market.

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As Dario explained, 99% is impossibly.

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So, the markets became so concentrated, so unfair, that even the European Union decided to regulate the market, right?

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And this law is all about inserting more competition into the market.

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So basically this law applies only to the largest tech companies in the planet, so Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Meta and Apple.

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And this law gives power to the European community.

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So, this law applies to the European Commission to designate the terms services that this law will apply, because this law has very powerful legal instruments.

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So, this law applies to online search engines, to social networks, operating systems, online app stores and cloud services.

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And for free software, there are some rules that we can read there that are very powerful tools.

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So, it's like a can opener, you know, that we can literally make holes in the infrastructure of big tech.

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So, for an example, Article 6.3, there is an obligation to allow uninstalling of apps in our mobile devices.

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Article 6.4, obligation to allow third party app stores, and the law uses the term sideloading, basically installing, you know, software in your device without the need for an app store or something, right?

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And Article 6.7, this is one of my favorites, because, like, this is hardcore.

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And Article 6.7, this is one of my favorites, because, like, this is hardcore.

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And Article 6.7, this is one of my favorites, because, like, this is hardcore.

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And Article 6.7, this is hardcore.

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Regulation, over interoperability, where we will talk about this in a second.

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This big tech needs to give access to the same software features and functionalities that they have to third parties, right?

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So, this is a very strong type of obligations.

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And, of course, this law, cause, yeah, it was a hit, right?

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And, of course, this law, cause, yeah, it was a hit, right?

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Yes.

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So, it's hitting the head.

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Yes.

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Die Headlines, besonders nach der Administration von Trump in den USA,

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haben kritisch einen Skandal gegen diese Regel,

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die sagt, dass die DMA gegen nordamerikanische Firmen diskriminiert ist.

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Sie sagen, dass sie die Innovation dieser Firmen verhindern.

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Sie sagen, dass die DMA gegen nordamerikanische Firmen diskriminiert ist.

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Es gibt also einen sehr starken Backslash der DMA gegen diese Regel.

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Und wenn ich sage, dass sie gegen diese Regel sind,

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dann meine ich gegen das Uninstallieren von Softwaren,

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alternativen Operationssystemen, alternativen App-Stores,

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das Side-Loaden von Applikationen und Interoperabilität.

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Diese Regel ist also nicht gegen diese Regel,

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sondern gegen die DMA.

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Diese Regel ist also nicht gegen diese Regel,

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sondern gegen die DMA.

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Das sind die vier Freiheiten von Software.

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Deshalb haben wir uns engagiert.

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Wie gesagt, wir haben uns engagiert in diesem Kampf.

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Wir haben uns engagiert in diesem Kampf.

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Wir haben uns engagiert in diesem Kampf.

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Wir haben uns engagiert in diesem Kampf.

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Denn wir denken, dass die Beziehungen zwischen DMA und Free Software

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komplementär sind.

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Es gibt eine Synergie.

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Sie sind miteinander nützlich.

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Denn hier in Europa,

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in der Softwareindustrie in Europa,

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ist es keine große Technologie.

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94% der Softwareentwicklung

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ist durch kleine und mittlere Unternehmensunternehmen gemacht,

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mit weniger als neun Mitarbeitern.

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Es gab eine Studie der Europäischen Kommission,

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in der sie den Markt der Softwareindustrie in Europa analysiert haben.

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Und sie haben das realisiert.

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Also, die Softwareindustrie in der EU ist eine kleine Technologie.

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Und deshalb ist unsere Beziehung zu dieser Regel

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nicht die EU gegen die USA.

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Nein, es ist die große Technologie gegen die kleine Technologie.

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Denn die große Technologie ist nicht nur für die Europäer zutreffend,

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sondern auch für den ganzen Welt,

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insbesondere die USA.

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Und wir sind in Kontakt mit vielen Organisationen

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in den Vereinigten Staaten,

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dass sie auch gegen die große Technologie sind.

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Denn das ist zutreffend für ihre eigenen Gesellschaften.

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Und deshalb,

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wenn wir die vier Freiheiten der Software nutzen wollen,

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die Freiheit zu nutzen,

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müssen wir die kleine Technologie verteidigen.

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Wir müssen die Geräte-Neutralität verteidigen.

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Deshalb,

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und wie wir uns damit engagieren,

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also, wie wir diese Regel als Realität machen,

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wir sind in der privaten Befreiung dieser Regel involviert.

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Bis jetzt ist die FSFE

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die einzige zivilgesellschaftliche Organisation,

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die die DMA privat befreiungspflichtig verfolgt.

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Und wir sind,

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wir sind gegen Apple eingegangen.

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Denn Apple,

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das erste, was Apple macht,

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war, dass die Europäische Kommission

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Apple als Gätegeber bezeichnet hat.

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Also begann die Regel, sie anzunehmen.

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Apple hat an den Europäischen Gerichtshof gefeuert

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und sagte, diese Regel sollte nicht an mich eingeführt werden.

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Und sie versuchen, die DMA-Regeln zu verfolgen,

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besonders in Bezug auf AppStore

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und die Interoperabilität

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der Systeme.

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Und das ist sehr interessant,

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weil sie in einem sehr kreativen,

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in einem sehr kreativen,

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in einem sehr kreativen,

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sie sind sehr kreativ.

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Und sie befinden sich in der Debatte

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über Interoperabilität gegen Menschenrechte.

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Sie sagen, Interoperabilität ist gegen

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Menschenrechte.

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Ja

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Sie sagen, es ist gegen das Recht auf

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Bauchrecht, es ist das Recht auf Business zu handeln,

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denn wenn man Interoperabilität

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in jemanden forciert,

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dann forciert man jemanden,

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Kontakte mit jemand anderen zu erstellen.

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So

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und sie sagen, dies ist gegen

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human rights and and their own relationship so we went there and we and we

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had a victor already is our victor is to be accepted as part in this in this court

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case because this court case was Apple against the against the European

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Commission and yeah two big parties and then we request the court to be to

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intervene our lawyer is involved with the free software community since

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forever and the court accepted us and now we are bringing the argument that as

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soon as such societies grow interoperability become inevitable and

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Apple is being regulated from the public interest perspective and this is our

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take so we want that the DMA is enforced in a developer friendly way

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you

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install software that you cannot uninstall good luck trying to uninstall

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chromium for example right but this law is very clear saying you have to every

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apps that is installed in the in the device should be uninstalled and it's

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amazing because Google came and presented different definitions of

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uninstalling and affirms that disabling this Apple is equal of uninstalling it

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and yeah and they come from different types of disabling and in their view

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this is compliant with the law and this in practice means uninstalling and we

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from the free software community we understand that uninstalling and

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installing are very precise terms you know and therefore we again we started a

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complaint against Google together with a group of civil society organizations and

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Das Gesetz bringt Beweise an die Europäische Kommission, dass wir die Uninstallation von preinstallierten Software auf unseren Geräten wollen.

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Das ist natürlich wichtig für die Geräte. Wir wollen diese Lock-ins nicht behalten.

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Letzteres, und ich gehe hier etwas schneller, um uns mehr Zeit zu geben, um zu diskutieren, und wenn Sie Fragen darüber haben.

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Jeder weiß, dass wenn wir eine neue Laptop kaufen und sie manchmal mit Windows-Systemen preinstalliert werden können...

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... ist es schwer, eine Bezahlung der Lizenz zu bekommen.

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Manchmal kostet das 40€, manchmal ist es günstiger.

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Und wenn man dann zum Verkäufer in Deutschland geht, Saturn oder MediaMarkt oder wo auch immer, und sagt...

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...

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...

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I don't want to use the Windows in my laptop that I just bought.

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Can you give the license fee back?

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They said, no, we can't.

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Okay, so where should I get this license fee back?

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Okay, you have to write to the manufacturer.

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Thank you.

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And then we go to the manufacturer.

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The manufacturer said, no, you have to write to Microsoft.

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And then we write it to Microsoft.

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So we started a campaign.

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Refund for Freedom.

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We want to make it easy for everyone to get the Windows license.

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This is already protected under the EU law.

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And we think that this is fair.

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So these are some of the actions, the hardcore actions that we are doing

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in order to make this law applicable in the European Union.

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But you can also be part of that.

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And I give the word back to Dario.

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Yes, you can also be part of the change

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because I don't know if you know this initiative from the European Commission.

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It's called the Next Generation Internet Initiative.

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Basically, it actually funds free software projects

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that try to build alternatives to what we have now.

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So there are different application rounds and they are ongoing.

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Right now there is a new application round open until the 1st of October.

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So if you're developing something,

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some free software that you think might need some funding

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and might be relevant, you can apply there.

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As FSFE, we're also part of this consortium

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and we help projects with licenses and with our use tool

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that makes licensing easier for everyone.

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So you can scan the QR code, go to the website that is there

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and you can actually be part of the change.

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And develop alternatives.

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But you can also be part of the movement for software freedom.

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So if you're interested in our activities,

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you can go to our website, check what we are doing.

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You can become supporters.

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And actually, this is extremely important

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because that's how we can pursue our fight for software freedom

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with contributions from everyone.

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And last but not least, we're going to be here today.

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Today.

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Tonight, not for so long,

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but tomorrow we're going to be here since the early afternoon.

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00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:31,060
So if you want to talk to us, we have a small booth,

231
00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:31,840
we have a small table.

232
00:16:32,340 --> 00:16:34,540
We're really happy to welcome you there

233
00:16:34,540 --> 00:16:38,220
and to talk about free software, to talk about our activities.

234
00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:41,660
If you have any questions, you're more than welcome to ask.

235
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:42,900
So thank you.

236
00:16:43,020 --> 00:16:43,560
Thank you very much.

237
00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:52,120
So many thanks for your talk.

238
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:53,600
So questions?

239
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:54,780
From the audience.

240
00:17:00,660 --> 00:17:01,380
There's one.

241
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:06,120
Hi.

242
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,720
And thank you for fighting this fight.

243
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:09,920
I think it's really important.

244
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,060
My question is, how does that make you feel?

245
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,260
Because, I mean, you're fighting the big tech.

246
00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:17,760
You're fighting the big companies, the big boys.

247
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,340
And I guess it's really hard.

248
00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:22,400
So how is that for you?

249
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,900
It's challenging, I would say.

250
00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,360
I mean, yeah, we fear retaliation.

251
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,780
And we saw in the news that the Trump administration

252
00:17:35,780 --> 00:17:38,060
are planning to introduce sanctions

253
00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:40,340
against the European Commission's officers

254
00:17:40,340 --> 00:17:41,820
that are working in these laws.

255
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,960
So the officers that are enforcing,

256
00:17:45,380 --> 00:17:47,980
they most likely will be sanctioned.

257
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,980
So, yeah, I do think that it is...

258
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:59,000
requires a lot of mental strength on this.

259
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,260
But the good thing is that we have an awesome community.

260
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,740
So every time that we go to the conference like this

261
00:18:05,740 --> 00:18:08,200
and to others, you know, we receive a lot of support,

262
00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:12,980
moral support and technical support, for an example.

263
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,280
Because when we start to work on this law,

264
00:18:17,980 --> 00:18:22,040
you know, we didn't know precisely how this would work.

265
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,860
And together with a coalition of apps,

266
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,820
we didn't have time to talk with this.

267
00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:31,360
But we had several different app stores,

268
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:32,860
payment systems, browsers,

269
00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:35,440
all of them free software that came to us

270
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,080
and helped us to understand how we could do this

271
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,020
and how we could put this under the law

272
00:18:41,020 --> 00:18:42,240
in order to make this legally.

273
00:18:42,820 --> 00:18:47,340
So the support that we received from the community

274
00:18:47,340 --> 00:18:50,140
helps us really pushing this

275
00:18:50,140 --> 00:18:52,000
because we know that we are not alone in this.

276
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,780
And if I may add,

277
00:18:53,780 --> 00:18:55,180
thank you for the question.

278
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,840
And it's really nice to ask you this, to ask us this.

279
00:18:58,220 --> 00:19:01,300
Sometimes I feel like there is fighting against some bullies, you know.

280
00:19:01,740 --> 00:19:03,760
And to be honest, fighting against bullies,

281
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,020
it's always challenging, but it's actually rewarding

282
00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:08,960
because, you know, they're doing something wrong.

283
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,540
So it's a nice fight to pick, for sure.

284
00:19:19,460 --> 00:19:21,320
Yes, thank you for doing this.

285
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:21,960
Definitely.

286
00:19:22,460 --> 00:19:23,320
I think it's...

287
00:19:23,780 --> 00:19:25,200
Definitely the right course.

288
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,420
And it's good that you're here.

289
00:19:28,380 --> 00:19:30,500
Definitely also the right place for it.

290
00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:34,600
And what I would like to ask is,

291
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,380
especially what you've just mentioned,

292
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:37,660
the apps.

293
00:19:38,420 --> 00:19:40,500
For example, what I personally think of

294
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:44,600
is Enter for photo sharing, open source.

295
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,780
Former Google employee who started this.

296
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,600
Are companies like these supporting you directly

297
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,560
just by, for example,

298
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,860
donations or other support?

299
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:01,180
Can you repeat the question?

300
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:02,620
Sorry, of course.

301
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:07,340
So, I personally use quite a lot of open source software.

302
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,120
And this is a unique setting point for me.

303
00:20:10,620 --> 00:20:12,180
One question would be,

304
00:20:12,620 --> 00:20:15,080
is there any, for example,

305
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,820
are there companies that are just directly supporting you?

306
00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:19,280
Ah, yeah.

307
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,380
And is this something that they use as ad for the app?

308
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:24,740
Or using their services?

309
00:20:24,740 --> 00:20:28,440
So, for example, I could think of services like Enter.

310
00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:31,320
I could think of services like DuckDuckGo, for example.

311
00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:35,940
Are you having a list of companies that are supporting you?

312
00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:39,320
And on the other hand, just like, for example,

313
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:41,860
with labels like Fairtrade

314
00:20:41,860 --> 00:20:44,980
that are used by companies in the food business,

315
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,540
do you have like a label that companies use

316
00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:52,620
to showcase that they are supporting you?

317
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:53,260
Yeah.

318
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,640
In whatever way?

319
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:55,480
Yeah.

320
00:20:55,740 --> 00:20:56,920
Thank you for your question.

321
00:20:57,500 --> 00:20:59,940
We are very transparent on our donors.

322
00:21:00,140 --> 00:21:02,700
So, we have a list of the companies.

323
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,040
And our donors go from individuals to small media enterprise.

324
00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:09,680
And some of these large companies,

325
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,100
because they like free and open source software,

326
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:14,300
they also donate to us.

327
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,140
So, even the companies that we are fighting,

328
00:21:16,620 --> 00:21:19,060
their open source department like us.

329
00:21:19,060 --> 00:21:21,600
So, it's, yeah.

330
00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:22,480
But,

331
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,180
we are doing this type of outreach because sometimes,

332
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,140
and your question is very important,

333
00:21:28,220 --> 00:21:28,860
very, very important,

334
00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:32,140
because free software companies, the smaller ones,

335
00:21:32,420 --> 00:21:34,980
sometimes they don't know about this law, you know.

336
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,300
And recently we went to the Open Source Business Alliance

337
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:41,200
and we had a talk there, you know,

338
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:44,060
because sometimes the companies say,

339
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:45,760
oh, this is just a law that, you know,

340
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:46,940
we don't understand there.

341
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,200
And we are here to show that this law has a lot of obligations

342
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,340
to these large companies that will benefit from it.

343
00:21:53,340 --> 00:21:56,020
It will benefit the smaller free software companies, you know.

344
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,100
So, and we want that free software companies

345
00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:02,100
developing these alternative things that you just mentioned

346
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:03,700
also profit from this.

347
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,820
Because this is what actually the democratic, yeah,

348
00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:09,800
institutions in the European Union, they want.

349
00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:13,360
They want, we don't want to be stuck in all the lock-ins.

350
00:22:13,620 --> 00:22:14,380
We need alternatives.

351
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:15,820
But in order to have alternatives,

352
00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:19,300
we need companies or projects that are doing this.

353
00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:21,580
Of course, the implementation of free software

354
00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:23,180
in the public administration or,

355
00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:23,320
you know,

356
00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:24,880
not only in public administration,

357
00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:27,420
in markets is a different debate

358
00:22:27,420 --> 00:22:29,100
because then we need also,

359
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,940
we have like public money, public code,

360
00:22:32,060 --> 00:22:35,320
we have other activities that is oriented to this.

361
00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:39,060
But I do think that we have several companies supporting us,

362
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:43,280
smaller free software companies supporting us.

363
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,380
But I think that not only for support for us,

364
00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:50,000
but I think more companies should be aware of this.

365
00:22:50,140 --> 00:22:51,820
And that's why we are doing this outreach

366
00:22:51,820 --> 00:22:53,180
and to use this opportunity

367
00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:57,020
this momentum in order to get better policies

368
00:22:57,020 --> 00:22:58,820
in relation to this, yes.

369
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,140
But thank you.

370
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:00,780
Thank you.

371
00:23:02,860 --> 00:23:03,420
Okay.

372
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,060
Are there more questions from the audience?

373
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,720
Then I would like to ask one question.

374
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,900
How is your cooperation with other initiatives,

375
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,180
with local initiatives from countries?

376
00:23:17,180 --> 00:23:22,820
Or how you connect with other parties that have the same goals?

377
00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:23,500
Yes.

378
00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:25,460
Okay.

379
00:23:25,580 --> 00:23:26,580
I will give some examples

380
00:23:26,580 --> 00:23:28,700
and I will also give Dario some examples.

381
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,980
So I have, there's two fronts.

382
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,540
For us, the technical front, as I said,

383
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:36,820
and the public awareness one.

384
00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:40,060
Dario is in contact with several organizations,

385
00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:44,700
work on the public awareness level, you know.

386
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,880
And we are together also collaborating

387
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,220
and working together with several free software

388
00:23:51,220 --> 00:23:52,180
from different countries.

389
00:23:53,180 --> 00:23:56,020
On the technical level.

390
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,040
So, for an example,

391
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:03,860
recently we started a survey of free software projects

392
00:24:03,860 --> 00:24:08,500
that they are distributing their apps on Android or iOS.

393
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,640
And we wanted to know what are the challenges

394
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,920
that they are facing, for an example,

395
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,820
when they have to access some APIs, right?

396
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,700
For an example, a camera app in iOS,

397
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:22,420
when they have to access the camera.

398
00:24:23,180 --> 00:24:23,940
In iPhone.

399
00:24:24,780 --> 00:24:26,600
Is the API good documented?

400
00:24:27,260 --> 00:24:30,700
What do you have to do in order to get access to this?

401
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,120
Recently, we work with GnuTaller.

402
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,660
GnuTaller is a...

403
00:24:35,660 --> 00:24:38,360
Alternative payment system.

404
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,600
Alternative payment system that they entered in iOS

405
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,240
and they were not granted access to the NFC chip on devices.

406
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,220
And it took a long time for them to get access to an NFC chip.

407
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:52,680
And then we documented this.

408
00:24:52,860 --> 00:24:53,160
And we put it in iOS.

409
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,440
And we put this in a documentation.

410
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,160
And we sent it to the European Commission.

411
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,460
And said, look, this is not right under the DMA.

412
00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:01,080
Other, for an example,

413
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:07,060
we had also technical collaboration with emulators.

414
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,380
Emulators that they wanted to access some software features.

415
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:11,620
They were not possible.

416
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:12,960
And then we documented everything

417
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,400
and we sent it to the European Commission

418
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,040
and said, this is not right under the law.

419
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,240
So, this is the type of technical collaboration

420
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,240
that we are having with free software projects

421
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,160
in order to...

422
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,680
Yeah, to call the attention of regulators

423
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,480
that free software need helps

424
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:29,880
in order to make this law a reality.

425
00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:32,600
But also in the public awareness.

426
00:25:32,860 --> 00:25:33,420
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

427
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,040
So, of course, the more we are, the better.

428
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,780
And so, we're also trying to do a lot of outreach

429
00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:41,900
with other civil society organizations.

430
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:44,540
There are other civil society organizations

431
00:25:44,540 --> 00:25:46,960
that are also collaborating with us

432
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,340
and we're collaborating with them at the European level,

433
00:25:49,820 --> 00:25:51,540
more at the local level, also in Germany

434
00:25:51,540 --> 00:25:52,540
or in Germany.

435
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,860
At the European level, for example,

436
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,440
EDRI or Article 19.

437
00:25:56,780 --> 00:25:59,340
So, there are a lot of civil society organizations

438
00:25:59,340 --> 00:26:00,600
that are active on this.

439
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:04,060
So, the debate now is also on the DMA

440
00:26:04,060 --> 00:26:06,580
before it was more focused on the Digital Service Act.

441
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:08,140
But we believe that it's important.

442
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,080
It's also why we're trying to talk a lot

443
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,460
with other civil society organizations.

444
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,980
Not only digital rights organizations,

445
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:17,640
but in general to other civil society organizations.

446
00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:20,940
So, also if you think you can put us in contact

447
00:26:20,940 --> 00:26:22,700
with someone, that would be great.

448
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:24,820
Because the more we are, the better.

449
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,900
And I think this is a fight for the better.

450
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,000
Thank you.

451
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:31,820
Okay, thank you.

452
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,420
So, we have some more time

453
00:26:35,420 --> 00:26:38,380
if there are more questions from the audience.

454
00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:45,000
Then let's thank our speakers again.

455
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:46,700
Thanks a lot.

456
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:47,540
It's a pleasure.

457
00:26:47,540 --> 00:26:47,700
Thank you.